We caught up with Harriet Over, professor of developmental and social psychology at the University of York, to learn more about:
The history and business model behind the manosphere — interrogating how and why these ideas have been popularised.
The evidence and research base underpinning our new (free) lessons on this topic.
How you can support boys and young men in your role as PSHE teachers.
Reasons to be optimistic for the future of boys and young men, including the success of recent approaches and interventions.
Watch the episode and read the full transcript below. Or listen on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.
Liz
Hi, and welcome to PSHE Talks. I'm Liz Laming, one of the Senior Subject Specialists at the PSHE Association, and I'm excited to be here today to explore the rise of the so-called manosphere and what it means for young people, schools, and PSHE education. I'm joined today by Professor Harriet Over. Harriet's a professor of psychology at the University of York and is currently overseeing a project funded by the European Research Council to investigate how the manosphere is affecting young people and how to reduce its negative effects. And we've been working with Harriet for a number of years, last year creating a guidance document for teachers called 'Online Misogyny and the Manosphere'. And this year we've been creating lessons addressing misogyny for key stage 3 to 4. So, we're going to have a look today at how online misogynistic content is reaching boys and young men, why these spaces can feel appealing, and the role of algorithms and social media platforms... The role they play in amplifying these harmful narratives. And we'll then look at the impact of all of this on schools, the role of PSHE education in responding to these issues, and how teachers can support really positive conversations about masculinity and respect and equality.
So welcome, Harriet. Lovely to have you with us.
Harriet
Lovely to be here.
Liz
We'll dive straight in. So I think first of all, just to set the scene, can you just start by explaining what it is we're talking about when we refer to the manosphere and how has this evolved?
Harriet
So the manosphere is a loose collection of blogs, influencers, and forums who amplify cultural messages that women are inferior to men and ought to be subordinated to them. So some of the messages in this space are about how women are inherently illogical, manipulative, they can't be trusted, they're biologically inferior. And these attributions towards women are used to justify a whole load of prescriptive stereotypes about how men and women ought to behave, that men should be in charge, that women should stay at home, sometimes that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. So there's a whole range of toxic ideas about both men and women in these spaces.
Liz
And how has this kind of developed over the years? 'Cause it's a relatively not new concept, but it has really grown.
Harriet
So the manosphere emerged over the course of the last 20 years, and there is evidence that it's becoming increasingly popular and also that it's becoming increasingly radical. In terms of the sub-communities of the manosphere, the kind of earliest manifestations of it were men's rights activists and also 'pickup artists' who taught teenage boys and young men strategies for seducing women, some of which bordered on or even advocated for sexual assault. Other communities include things like 'Men Going Their Own Way', and perhaps most well-known are 'incels', or 'involuntary celibates'. So these are men who express their rage and despair that they're unable to find girlfriends and sometimes glorify violence against women and girls as part of that. And then the most recent manifestation, which is the most popular, are these 'manfluencers'. So those are men like Andrew Tate who are combining misogyny with supposed lifestyle advice and wealth creation advice.
Liz
And with that then, what does the research tell us about how young people, particularly boys, are encountering and engaging with the manosphere?
Harriet
So we know that boys are encountering the manosphere at very high rates. So a poll in 2023 suggested that 80% of teenage boys between the ages of 16 and 17 had seen Andrew Tate content online. Another poll also in 2023 suggested that 69% of boys aged between 11 and 14 had been recommended content that's negative about women and girls without ever having searched for it. In terms of engagement with the manosphere, the number of teenage boys who endorse these ideas is much lower. Polling data suggests perhaps around 20-25% approve of Andrew Tate, for example.
That's still a substantial number, but much lower than [the figure for] boys who are encountering it.
Liz
Mm, that's horrifying, but also, you know, incredibly interesting to see the way they're engaging. Why do you think some of these online spaces have become appealing though to some boys and young men as well?
Harriet
I think there are two ways we could answer that question. So one is to say that when boys encounter this content, It feels like it's true. It feels like it's true partly because it's echoing broader sexist messages in our culture about what men and women should be like. But also because the way social media recommender algorithms work, it creates these kind of echo chambers where it feels like everybody agrees with these sexist ideas. And we know that all of us, and particularly teenagers, are very keen to fit in and conform to group norms. And that can be very, appealing then. There's very interesting research in psychology on something called the illusory truth effect. And that is the idea that the more times you see disinformation, the more plausible it starts to feel. So the first time the algorithms recommend particular disinformation to a teenage boy, say, they might recognise it as untrue. The next time they see a similar lie, it seems more plausible. The time after that, it seems more plausible. again. And if we take all of those factors and combine them with the types of persuasive tricks that misogynistic influencers are using, it really can feel like what we know to be lies is the truth.
A lot of these influencers, they're citing things like evolutionary psychology and saying science backs up these really regressive ideas about gender and gender relations.
Liz
And what are some of those key narratives or messages that they're being exposed to regularly?
Harriet
Yeah, I think that another really interesting part of this is to think about like, what is this type of contract offering boys? And I think part of it, so 'Manfluencers' in particular are offering boys a kind of sense of hope. And that's another aspect that's appealing about it. So they're saying things to boys like, "do you wanna get rich quick? We have all these solutions with Crypto Currency. Do you wanna get a girlfriend? Here are the solutions." So it's offering boys a kind of quick fix solution. And we know that boys are experiencing genuine problems in their lives, and misogynistic influences aren't the answer, but they can appear to be the answer to these boys.
Liz
I was gonna say, it's a really interesting idea of how they're being exposed to that and then how that maybe translates into what teachers are seeing in schools and kind of what attitudes and beliefs are coming through. Has your research looked into any of that?
Harriet
So we have looked in collaboration with [PSHE Association CEO] Jono [Baggaley], we did a survey with teachers and asked them, how is the manosphere, or how do you believe online misogyny is affecting the behaviour and experiences of your pupils? And teachers talk about boys disrespecting their female peers. So for example, sometimes even engaging in illegal behaviour. So one, Secondary school teacher told us about some boys who'd been upskirting girls in the stairwell. A primary school teacher told us about an occasion on which a group of boys had inserted one of their female peer's image into a porn app and then showed her the image and said "This is what you should be like." Teachers also talk about female teachers in particular being disrespected when they try to give subsets of boys a consequence, being physically intimidated or being told to get back to the kitchen because they shouldn't be teaching anyway. That finding also accords with some findings from Stephanie Westcott's lab in Australia, who's finding very similar things about how difficult it is to be a female teacher, how this makes it even more difficult. Yet another theme is, you know, the manosphere is not just a sexist place, it's also a really homophobic space.
So teachers who are part of the LGBT+ community are often experiencing discrimination from pupils. And then I guess another aspect of it is teachers' wellbeing and how, you know, teachers have so much to do and they're doing a really difficult job. And this is... I think there are good reasons to think that this is making it even harder.
Liz
Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think it's certainly something we are seeing reflected in what teachers are saying to us as well, what their sort of attitudes and things they're experiencing in the classroom and how to respond to that in the classroom setting too. So what do you think the role is then of PSHE education in all of this?
Harriet
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that because obviously sexism is something that we need to address throughout the curriculum, but PSHE is the place where it can be most directly challenged. So we know that when children learn about digital literacy, for example, those are very important skills, but it's difficult for them to transfer what they learn about digital literacy in general to particular domains like sexism. So what we wanted to do together is to create lessons that really directly address what types of sexist messages kids might experience online and how they can think critically about those messages.
Liz
And I think, yeah, you've hit the nail on the head there really with thinking about the wider PSHE curriculum. 'Cause we would always talk about the fact that this is something that can be addressed through various topics kind of throughout the whole PSHE curriculum. You know, you've mentioned digital literacy, but when you're teaching about mental health and wellbeing, students will look at, you know, just the fact that everyone experiences a range of emotions and, mental health conditions can affect anyone, males and females. When we're looking at belonging and community, we might look at gender stereotypes and think about how misconceptions really shape, uh, aspirations and how to build kind of supportive relationships and communities and things. But there is absolutely, as you say, this place then to have discrete teaching on this topic and where we explicitly address some of these myths and misconceptions from the manosphere. So what would you say effective teaching in this area looks like? Like, are there approaches that the evidence suggests work really well?
Harriet
The lessons that we've been putting together are based on three separate strands of theory and research in psychology. So one is inoculation theory. So this is an idea from the study of persuasion, which is that just as you can protect the body from a virus by presenting it with a weakened or de-weaponized version of a virus, so too you can partially protect the mind from disinformation by presenting people with watered-down versions of the argument and helping them to generate counterarguments to that claim. And as a parent and as an educator, that makes a lot of sense because we know that kids are extremely likely to encounter these sexist lies. And so the only choice we have really is should they encounter those sexist lies from influencers or from us in a safe environment where they can be constructively challenged? The second principle is based on encouraging empathy. So we know from many, many studies in psychology that one way to reduce prejudice is to encourage people to think through the consequences of discriminatory behaviour. So we want to encourage children to think about how sexism hurts women and girls, but also how it hurts boys and young men.
And then the third strand of research is on bystander intervention. So it's all very well having good intentions, but children need help to understand how to put those good intentions into practise. And research shows that helping children to develop concrete plans to safely stand up for themselves and stand up for other people is another important part of reducing prejudice and also empowering children to know that they can be part of the solution.
Liz
That's really interesting and it's something obviously we've been working with when we've created the lessons. Are there any age groups where you think these approaches work particularly well, where are they most effective?
Harriet
Well, I think that we need to talk about these issues with children earlier than is generally thought. So it's not that there's a specific age range, but I think often as, speaking as a parent at least, it's very tempting to try and shelter your child from prejudice and say: "there are all of these horrible things out there and I want to make sure my kid doesn't have to encounter those for as long as possible." But what our research shows is that children are experiencing sexist discrimination in primary school. And what that means is that we need to be talking to them about that these problems when they're quite young. Because for girls we need them to know what's happening isn't their fault and that, and you know, not attribute things to sort of personal failings that are a result of these broader structural problems. And for boys too, we don't want their aspirations to be limited by prescriptive gender stereotypes that hurt them as well as hurting girls.
Liz
Absolutely. It's interesting as well, we should have picked this up earlier, but the point about... We talked about boys and what they're seeing online and how they're engaging with this space online. Are girls engaging with the manosphere at all? Are they seeing anything different through their social media algorithms? How does it look for females?
Harriet
Well, it certainly seems like... the best available data at least suggests that girls do interact with these ideas, but at considerably lower rates. So teachers report that they talk about misogynistic influences much less frequently, and there are reasons to think that they're not recommended [to] them at such high rates as well. But there are certain sub-communities of the manosphere that are intended for girls. So 'tradwife' content, for example, is largely female influencers talking to an audience of other women about the value of traditional gender stereotypes. I think also certain types of content that until now we thought of mostly as about being directed towards boys, like 'looksmaxing' content, for example... So 'looksmaxing' content is a of the manosphere in which boys are encouraged to modify their physical appearance in an attempt to seduce women. And some of that content is very toxic indeed. So, for example, on some sites, boys are encouraged to upload photos of themselves and then get feedback from their peers, but that feedback can be brutal, suggesting that they take testosterone, that they have surgery to supposedly 'fix' their faces and so on. And it's pretty clear that... You know, we've known for a long time that social media has damaging content for women and girls in terms of body image, but that 'looksmaxing' trend, we're seeing it a bit more among girls as well now.
Liz
Yeah, that is really interesting. And in that case, how can teachers address these issues without alienating the young people they're trying to reach? You know, how are we creating these spaces for boys to talk about masculinity in ways that feel relevant to them rather than dismissive or or preachy or just out of touch with what they actually feel?
Harriet
Yeah, this is so hard, isn't it? So in psychological research, we call that 'problem defensiveness'. And one of the main reasons why interventions to reduce prejudice can fail is that it can make people feel defensive and then they're not receptive to the message. And teachers are absolutely experts in reducing defensiveness when talking about these issues. And I think the core of it is really about trying to open up conversation. So obviously, sexist behaviour has to have consequences, It's really easy, particularly when you know lots of teachers have been personally affected by sexism and other forms of bias, and it's really easy to respond with your hot reaction and be like, "How dare you? That's outrageous." And I know that as a parent too. But what we need to try and do is take a breath and say... Try to explore with kids, where do those ideas come from? Is it part of an elaborated worldview? Do they really understand what they're saying? And then try to help them think through why those ideas might be flawed. And that's something that we talked about in our teaching teacher guidance, isn't it, about how to open up those spaces for conversation?
Liz
Absolutely. And it's helping teachers to understand where to unpick some of what's being said versus shutting conversations down. And there's a lot to that, I think, and a lot that needs to be unpicked there, which isn't always easy, as you say, in the moment when your own personal reaction might be quite reactive because it might touch feelings on a personal level. And make you feel... it makes it feel more difficult to be neutral and to actually approach something with curiosity rather than with tension or a sort of quick reaction.
Harriet
Yeah, absolutely. I guess the other element of it — so we've talked about how to open up conversations — but I think another element of it is to talk to boys about how sexism hurts them. So you mentioned the importance of discussing these types of issues in mental health, and one of the things that we found is that young men who engage with the manosphere experience more stigma around seeking help for mental health problems. So we know that's a problem in general, and it's amplified by sexist content that suggests that men can't... Real men can't be depressed, that, you know, men should be stoic, that life is a competition, and so on. So I think talking about the way those problematic stereotypes negatively affect boys and men is another way to help get them on board with social change.
Liz
Yeah, definitely. I think we've also been quite conscious in the lessons of not focusing on particular subgroups, and particularly you mentioned earlier that, you know, we've got pickup artists, we've got manfluencers, men's rights activists, and so on, as well as specific influencers that they may or may not be aware of. We haven't taken that approach. We've very much avoided focusing on specific groups and specific influencers, and I wonder if you could just talk to that, or sort of why we've taken that approach.
Harriet
Yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that in talking about these issues, we're not amplifying particular communities or particular individuals. So we don't want to introduce pupils to influencers they might not otherwise have heard of through our lessons. And it's also the case that influencers come and go and websites come and go. Sometimes they're banned and so on. Like, social media is a really quickly changing narrative, but the two things that don't change are the sexist messages underlying this content and the business model of social media.
And so, we want to create lessons that have longevity because they're focused on helping digital literacy and encouraging children to think about these sexist misconceptions that have been part of our culture for hundreds of years. And that's a problem online, but it's also a problem in our broader culture. So hopefully, by taking that approach, we're making these lessons as applicable to as large a number of people as possible for as long as possible.
Liz
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we were very much of the mindset too that kind of focusing on those groups can really oversimplify quite a complex issue and create this kind of... This false sense that harmful attitudes and narratives are limited to quite a small fringe or extreme group rather than this wider societal issue. And it's something to be very aware of, I think particularly because, and we don't want to create that space... Teachers, you know, certainly don't want to create that classroom space where an influencer is suggested and then suddenly students are piping up with their own ideas about other people that they've heard of and you're suddenly sharing this kind of... Giving them a platform.
Harriet
Yeah. That's absolutely right. So these people already have such a huge platform, we don't need to increase it. I think also another part of that is that these influencers can really get a lot of attention by claiming that they've been cancelled. So when we focus on them as individuals, we are giving them more credit than they deserve really. You know, it's not that these people are particularly charismatic and persuasive individuals for the most part... Like some of them are, charismatic communicators... But many of them, the only reason they're so successful really is that they're working in an online environment that works for them because it's prioritising outrage. And so we want to focus on the messages instead of the individuals.
Liz
Absolutely. I think with that as well, young people can form these real kind of parasocial relationships with these people. And so for students who might have already engaged with individuals or certain subgroups, if you are then talking about them in a really negative way in the classroom, presumably that can make them feel quite challenged or demonised for their views and they're going to disengage entirely.
Harriet
Or it can play into their narrative. You know, a lot of these influencers are saying like: "the matrix is against them" and that they're presenting some sort of exciting alternative to the status quo. And by talking about them specifically, either the community specifically or the influencer specifically, it kind of plays into that narrative, and we want to show it for what it is, which is just like old ideas recycled in a new environment, basically.
Liz
Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, you've talked a little bit about in the lessons focusing on the impact these narratives can have on males and females and the harms they can cause and so on. How else can we build positive counter-narratives that are centred more on respect and equality and consent and those kind of things, like what else can we be doing in schools and in lessons?
Harriet
I think one aspect of that is to highlight male and female role models who are doing good things for society. So, you know, we've talked a lot about people like Marcus Rashford and Stormzy who are doing like wonderful things for young people of all genders... You know, sometimes [commentators] say that boys don't have that many good role models. And I think that's not true. I think there are lots of wonderful role models out there. It's just a case of making sure that we celebrate them enough, whatever gender they are.
Liz
Of course, yeah. And I think as well encouraging schools to really find the positive role models in their own communities. We always talk about the importance of tailoring your PSHE curriculum to your student needs and being reflective of the needs of the local community and so on, but we should be really pulling out the positives there too. So positive male and female role models in schools, in parent communities, in local groups, all those kind of things can really come into play here as well, I think.
Harriet
Yeah, absolutely.
Liz
And I suppose the other area that we've looked at a little bit in the lessons, or quite a lot in the lessons, is the idea that you did mention earlier about influencer tactics and actually helping students to understand the approach influencers are taking, why they can seem appealing, and then unpicking some of the messages they're sharing as well. And then I think focusing on strategies of what young people can actually do then. So, we very much, I think, are focused in the lessons on making it clear that students should, first of all, understand that challenging misogyny should never compromise their personal safety. And that has to be, obviously, a really important point. And whether someone feels able to respond is going to depend on a lot of different factors, like the setting they're in, the people around them, the dynamics, the potential consequences. But I think where it's safe to do so, we really try to focus on, helping students kind of recognise a range of responses, like whether it's 'respectful challenge' or setting boundaries or seeking support or just disengaging. And trying to equip them with those strategies too, I think is one of the approaches we've also taken there.
Harriet
I think that's absolutely right. So support can look really substantial, like campaigns for equality and going on marches and so on. But it can also be as simple as not laughing at a sexist joke or after you've witnessed a sexist event, checking whether the victim's okay, or even just labelling it for what it is. I think all of those small steps can help create a culture of equality in a school.
Liz
Definitely, yeah. And on that note, I mean, is there any... I know your research has been, it's quite depressing to a degree, it's quite shocking in some ways. It's really important that we are exploring and unpicking some of these issues. But is there any reason for optimism? So are you seeing any kind of positive shifts in how young people think or talk about this topic, or teachers as well, what's going on in schools too?
Harriet
Yeah, I think there are lots of reasons for optimism. When we talk to teenage boys, so many of them want to be part of the solution. So in our latest study, we asked boys at the start of a lesson and at the end of a lesson: "some people say that women belong in the kitchen. Can you tell us some reasons why this might not be true?" And people say really inspired... Boys and girls... But boys say really inspiring things in response to that, advocating for equality, talking about female role models that are important to them. I was reading a quote just this morning actually from a boy who talked about Rosa Parks and how she fought for greater equality for everyone. So I think there are reasons for optimism. Realistically, when we look at how many people... How many young people are actually endorsing the views of these misogynistic influencers, it is a minority. So there's a big group of boys out there who are not convinced and who do see through the tactics of these influencers.
Liz
Yeah, definitely. And I think that's a really important point to stress in schools as well, that actually we're not... Because I think sometimes there is this, from teachers, from students, from parents as well... [They] can think that if we're teaching about this topic, we are demonising boys in particular, and we have a really negative perception, and it's a problem to be fixed. But actually, as you say, there's an awful lot of young people, the majority of young people, who don't necessarily endorse these views, who might be seeing this content, but it doesn't mean... Just because it's popping up on their social media feeds, that doesn't mean they're sharing it, liking it, believing in its accuracy.
Harriet
Yeah. And you know, even for those young people who don't agree with these views, when you see disinformation over and over again, it's so important to have the evidence to hand to be able to say: "I know that's not true for the following reasons." And that's what I hope we're providing in these classes is some evidence-based arguments for why these ideas are lies.
Liz
Yeah, definitely. And I think that is really important that we, you know, we have taken this very inclusive... And it's the, it's a research-informed approach to teaching about misogyny to help them recognise these harmful narratives, look at gender stereotypes and misconceptions, how they can harm everyone, and then build those respectful, equal relationships and challenge inequality. And on that note, if you could leave PSHE educators with kind of one key takeaway from your research and the work you've been doing, what would it be?
Harriet
You know, I was thinking about this and, the main thing I just want to say is thank you. Like we could not do this research without PSHE teachers. We've just been overwhelmed by how supportive schools have been and how much time teachers have invested in sharing their expertise with us. And that's what makes these lessons possible. So yeah, thank you very much.
Liz
No, thank you. And absolutely, we know there's some brilliant work happening in schools and we really do appreciate the amazing job that PSHE teachers are doing in this space. So just a reminder, listeners can download our guidance document — "Online Misogyny in the Manosphere" — from our website, which explores some of Harriet's research and is designed to support teachers to really navigate these challenging conversations. And then you can also download our brand-new lessons — "Challenging the Narrative: Thinking Critically About Misogyny", for key stage 3 to 4 — from the website now too. So thanks so much, Harriet, for joining us today, and we really look forward to continuing our work in future. Thank you.
Harriet
Me too. Thank you very much.